BBC2 Jan 24th 9pm

  • Thread starter Thread starter K.L.H.
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KittenWarrior, I don't follow what you're saying. In the programme, they debunked the placebo idea.
 
As a scientist on a career break (it doesn't pay me to be an employee scientist due to chronic disease), I have the following criticism of the research:

The research did not prove that acupunture worked, it only proved that needling at the acupressure point for pain worked In other words, the research proved the validity of the "puncture" part of acupunture only.

I would have liked to see proof of the more important part of acupuncture, the meridians and the points on the meridians. To do this, another control would be required at various other points not known as acupuncture points. Comparing the results of needling of these points to the needling of the point used in this research would be stronger evidence that acupuncture worked.

Needless to say (excuse the pun), I have total faith in acupuncture for many conditions.

What do you think?
 
Hi Darren, my thoughts may have taken me off on a tangent (sorry!). The research obviously proved acupuncture works over and above the placebo effect. I was just wondering whether the people that had the sham acupuncture still got results verses the group that didn't have any treatment? I was just pondering the power of the mind to make us feel less pain.

KW
 
i didnt see the programme, but it does annoy me that these programmes always focus on the "big" therapies... will reflexology be highlighted?[/align][/align]anyway,[/align][/align]aragorn,[/align][/align]we have had these discussions before on the boards, particularly the convincing a sceptic, asi recall.[/align][/align]and yes, is a "worrying" idea in as much, from my understanding and what you have told me in the past, western acupuncture is nothing like "real" acupuncture. [/align][/align]and whilst pain relief is a wonderful thing, getting to the cause of the symptom has got to be better. but GP's still do not have the time, so pain relief is their best option, it would seem.[/align][/align]suzanne,[/align][/align][/align]i have studied acupressure but am no expert. i would hazard a guess though, that seeing as the body has hundreds of acu points all over, it would be quite hard, i would think, to carry out what you are suggesting.
[/align]
 
Hi Rosie,



I believe next week they are covering healing (not sure what they are covering under that)and the week after herbal remedies, I believe it is only a 3 part pragramme. So, short answer, I do not think they are touching reflexology.

So we will have to see what next week brings.

Jo
 
Really interestingprogramme but for me personally I could never use acupuncture as I have a "thing" about needles and would probably run screaming from the building if approached by anyone with that number of needles!!!
It is great it works for some people though....
 
Speak to an EFT therapist.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions as this would be a bit off-topic.
 
Jan 31st program...

Pretty vacuous reporter faux-scientist sham grrrrrr! No surprises how she got that job is all I can say.

Instead of concentrating on research on spiritual healing, she went on to disprove the value of any treatment whatsoever saying a placebo was just as good. Say that to someone in A&E with their guts on the floor and their skull in several pieces. No, I don't think a placebo is just as good as the real thing in every case and I would happily set about proving it.

So our silly vacuous reporter decides that she should find research done by.... wait for it.. a psychologist.... about healers. Sure, a psychologist is perfectly capable of understanding string theory, interatomic interactions and the like, why all our physics labs are staffed by psychologists, not! This has been going on since yours truly graduated in 1989 and is still carried out by psychologists. Whatever next? Janitors? Anyway, this research done by the psychologist teaches a "fake" healer how to heal, thereby creating a healer. It also has too many variables. The results are that both original healer and the newly-taught healer get the same results. Any Reiki Master will quite happily say something like that to their Reiki 1 students.

Also, SVR goes to the USA where she finds a lab that explains the Aura. Freaked out by how we can unscientifically possibly have any electromagnetism, she changes the subject completely to the power of the placebo. The mind boggles.

So, if SVR is reading this, maybe you should have done a simple Google search. Theis is just one example of what a brief search came up with:
http://www.google.com/scholar?q=Bengston+WF,+Krinsley+D.+The+effect+of+the+%22laying+on+of+hands%22+on+transplanted+...+Journal+of+Scientific+Exploration.+2000%3B14(3):353-364&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2005-09,GGGL:en&sa=N&tab=ss&oi=scholart
 
hi suzanne,[/align][/align]yes i saw the programme and was very disappointed by the reporting... it wasnt really unbiased, was it! [/align][/align]my views are similar to yours... teach someone to "heal" (cant use the term tsk tsk!) and yeah, they become open to the "energies" and so can do as well as someone who learnt becasue they wanted to! dont we say... anyone can do this stuff, just open up to it?[/align][/align]what does amaze me, in programmes such as this, is why the reporter doesnt say, "ok, do it to me... see if i feel anything, feel better and more able." they never seem to.[/align][/align]as therapists, of whatever modality, these prorammes do us no favours and can also sway the publics perception, driving them back to pharmaceutical "quick fixes"... hey was the programme sponsored by smith klein or someone? [&:][/align][/align]referring back to the thread on science about convincing sceptics, it was "decided" there that double blind testing would be near to impossible and this programme sort of backed that up. the fake healer actor kinda proved that... lol be interesting to know if he uses his new found skills![/align][/align]
 
Not knowing of this thread, I posted on the 'healing' programme at
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643[/link]

Anyone who's read my posts knows I'm not a full sceptic by any means - believing in chi and acupuncture for example. And many other healing methods too. But alternative techniques can sometimes get pretty wacky, and I don't accept them all blindly either. So I found the research on the placebo effect interesting. It's just one step from unwitting patients getting placebo which works to witting people healing themselves (as one patient in the programme said, in his words). Just as 'scientists' shouldn't dismiss alternative healing methods, those using them - and the allopathic world - shouldn't ignore the Reality of the placebo effect, it seems.

Sometimes at New Age Fairs I've seen things as wacky as "Sit under this wire pyramid and place this metal cap on your head. It's connected by wire to that energy crystal which was charged through our hands from the Planet ZXyphon." Or along those lines - and people pay for it and do it. Well - if there's healing, is that from ZXyphon or from the person? So in what other therapies is this happening - if it can even cure arthritic knees by fake operations (refer to other thread or the TV prog)?

Rosie, glancing at your sign-off, you don't believe in double blinds but do in double entendres? There you go - it's all about belief.

V
 
I watched this programme and thought the result for Acupuncture was brilliant last week.
However, NO surprise about the conclusions last night! [sm=banghead.gif] It would have been a more scientific test if they had had two groups of animals - animals don't understand placebos, they either get better or they don't!!

Didanyone else think it was unethical that asurgeongave people anaesthetic and cut them open butdidn't actually doing anything, just to prove the placebo effect?? [sm=confused-smiley-012.gif]
 
Hi Poppet, I don't know but would strongly guess that they'd signed up that it might not be real surgery. In America of all places, the legalities would have been covered.
 
Well how stupid are they? I've had surgery and there's NO WAY I would consent to being opened up unless there was a good reason for doing it!!
 
http://www.energyresearch.bizland.com/ is someone else she should have consulted.
 
Poppet, I too was very disturbed that people were having a general anaestheticand being opened up needlessly. When I told my husband later on he was astonished. Having anaesthesia and surgery is not something to be undertaken lightly!

I was disappointed that most of the programme seemed to be dedicated to the placebo effect, and so little about healing in its different forms. The placebo effect should have been explored in a programme of its own.
 
I carry out reiki and when I first learnt it I was quite amazed at what I, and others felt.

Having watched this programme, it did diturb me a little. I have had spiritual healing done by my sister-in-law whilst she was in training, and again I was amazed at what she and I both felt etc. Although, I must abmit it has never made me feel any better or even assisted in curing anything that I may have had. It does relax me and I find it very therapeutic.

Anyway, thinking about illnesses are only in the mind, to me is quite true. I do feel that it is mind over matter. I have never let my illnesses, aches or pains get in the way of my day to day life things, and as soon as I start thinking about it the pain feels worse and I feel totally run down, but as soon as I start doing other things soon enough the pain has gone without realising.

It's all weird. I say stay positive and don't dwell over illnesses you may have. Soon enough they will go away.

Goodchild
 
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key[/link]=[/align][/align]if you folks havent already seen this thread, please go check it out. its about this series and venetian (lord bless his cotton socks!) has emailed the presenter, Dr Kathy Sykes, to come and view our discussion. [/align][/align]
 
found this website when searching for info about the programme:
[link=http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html]http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html[/link]

it might make for interesting reading
 
They don't make any bones about their viewpoint, do they! It's a bit extraordinary for a university to be so outspoken... It's not the kind of thing a uni would naturally be into... I mean, there's a lot of negative emotion gone into that site, it seems to me...

V
 
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    ๐ŸŒนโค๏ธโ€๐Ÿ”ฅ Wonder spa [9421Jane st unit 127)L6a 4H8,๐Ÿ”ฅ4165000-800,Ensuit rain shower now is available ,every day 4 nice girls working,๐Ÿ’„Amy is Vietnamese young sex girl,open maid,everything she can do,๐Ÿ’„Mimi is very beautiful face long leg friendly ,nice body slide,really popular must try๐ŸŒนlong hair friendly Mina,strong to relaxing oil massage,back walking,hot stone,get a lot massage experience ,give you warm time๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ
  36. Moneylee:
    All season wellness center :Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Midi ,New Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Baby ,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Yoyo ,Young girl Big breasted saucy naughty Ella ,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Sherry , address: #5-30 Rambler dr Brampton ,Ontario L6W 1E2โ˜Ž๏ธ4376655510 ๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿ‘„๐Ÿ‘„
  37. Moneylee:
    Full season wellness center: New Young girl Big-breasted big Big boobs big butts May, Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Vita ,Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Bobo, Young beautiful face sexy body and good deep massage maggie,Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Mary. 2560 Shepard ave Mississauga unit 1 .โ˜Ž๏ธ4379857899 ๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿ‘„๐Ÿ‘„
  38. AliceSpa:
    MONDAY at ๐—”๐—Ÿ๐—œ๐—–๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿต๐Ÿด-๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿด๐Ÿต๐Ÿด. 3 Sexy Young Girls Today at Alice Spa. Open 10am to 9pm : MIKO: from Taiwan, is young, very pretty, slim & busty internet celebrity who can make your face shine. 5'2", 100 Lbs, long black hair. Excellent service strong massage bbbj cim dfk, all menus. SOPHIA (11:30am-9pm): is a cute, young & pretty Singaporean girl
  39. HollywoodSpa:
    Monday at ๐ŸŽญ๐—›๐—ข๐—Ÿ๐—Ÿ๐—ฌ๐—ช๐—ข๐—ข๐—— ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”๐ŸŽญ, 4578 Yonge St, Unit 100, North York, ON: MIMI & TRACY. โ˜Ž๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฎ-๐Ÿฑ๐Ÿฑ๐Ÿฑ๐Ÿฐโ˜Ž MIMI is a slim Chinese spinner hottie with a great ass, great body slide & liberal services. TRACY is a slim, taller & pretty lady, very friendly with an extensive menu. When you visit ๐ŸŽญHollywood Spa๐ŸŽญ, you will be treated with tender care \
  40. bnwellness_wilson:
    have 4 masseuse are working today. Young sexy Michelle 25โ€™s with curve body open mind and new Tenteant Anita 30โ€™s with curve body open mind, young pretty popular Lily small 25โ€™s with curve body and cute GFE Ella are providing deep tissue massage, pls call 4163985777 book appointment and walk in always welcome, back entrance and parking available. 350 Wilson Ave North York
  41. ForeverWarden:
    Monday at ๐Ÿซฆโค๏ธ๐Ÿ”ดโ™พ๏ธ๐“•๐“ž๐“ก๐“”๐“ฅ๐“”๐“ก ๐“ข๐“Ÿ๐“โ™พ๏ธ๐ŸŸฅ๐Ÿ”ดโค๏ธ๐Ÿซฆ 2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿด๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฌ-๐Ÿณ๐Ÿด๐Ÿด๐Ÿณ: Bella, Cali & Cindy. Bella is around 5โ€™3โ€ with a thin to medium build, C Cups, and a pleasing personality. She can offer dfk, bbbj and cfs as well as a good massage experience. Cali is a slim and beautiful Korean lady with a complete range of services. Cindy is a slim beauty, 5โ€™4โ€
  42. Jennyโ€™s Spa:
    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’JENNYโ€™S SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…5170 DUNDAS STREET WESTโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ( 647-893-5196)โ˜Ž๏ธCall or Text โ˜Ž๏ธ( 437-888-3759)โ˜Ž๏ธCall Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…GRAND OPENING๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโ€™S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’ฏ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ”ฅโค๏ธ๐Ÿ‘Œ ๐Ÿ”ฅTWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ’ฏREAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS๐Ÿ’ฏ ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹Limited Time Special Promotion๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹ โœ…๐Ÿ’ฆ30 Minutes Nude Massage w
  43. SugarLoveSpa:
    Monday at โค๏ธ๐Ÿ’™ ๐Ÿ’œโŽ๐—ฆ๐—จ๐—š๐—”๐—ฅ ๐—Ÿ๐—ข๐—ฉ๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”โŽ ๐Ÿ’–๐Ÿ’—๐Ÿ’˜: ANA, CAMILLA, ELLA & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ON โ˜Ž ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿณ-๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿฑ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฒ๐Ÿด๐Ÿด โ˜Ž ANA is a young, short and sweet lady, 5โ€™1 & 105 Lbs, very tight, with a small to medium booty. Ana is a versatile honey who provides great massage, & can accommodate your needs. CAMILLA is from Mexico and Indiana
  44. Golden Flower Spa:
  45. Pink Flower Spa:
  46. Annie Spa:
    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ANNIE SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLEโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒSCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ (647) 891-9688โ˜Ž๏ธ โ˜Ž๏ธ (416) 291-8879โ˜Ž๏ธ (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…NEW MANAGEMENT๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ”ฅGORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAYโ€™s ROSTER INCLUDES: ๐Ÿ”ฅ Judy๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ”ฅOur new Asian massage girl Judy is a vision of refined sensuality, with a graceful figure and smooth, flawless skin that radiates warmth and allure. Her striking black hair frames her delicate features, and her poised elega
  47. Lulu_Villa_Spa:
    Sasa friendly Vietnamese girl Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl Cherry ๐Ÿ’ From Malaysia Part time School girl Sami Vietnamese Girl Natalie filipina mixed Petite girlโ€จโ˜Ž๏ธ647- 446-0886
  48. luckywellness:
    Lucky Wellness Center 4379721888 295 Eglinton Ave E,Unit 7,Mississauga Kiki and chloe Sarah works
  49. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน Three girls every day ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ 5124 Dundas West Street, Etobicoke โ˜Ž๏ธ 416-817-3366 ๐Ÿ‘ Newโ—๏ธNew girl โ—๏ธCindy, sexy girl 1.65 M.pretty boobs 36D๐Ÿ˜˜Superb service ๐Ÿ‘ Sweet girl Luna deep massage ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜ Hot and sexy body very provocative service ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜โค๏ธ You are welcome to make an appointment at any time or walk in directly through the back door. We have ample parking spaces available
  50. Alibi Massage and Spa:
    ๐Ÿ”ฅNOW at Alibi Massage & Spa ๐Ÿ’ƒ Breathtaking ladies ๐Ÿ’†โ€โ™‚๏ธ Pure pleasure & relaxation with an exclusive twistโ€ฆ ๐Ÿ“ž905 212 1222 ๐Ÿ“1380 Matheson Blvd East, Missisuaga
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