BBC2 Jan 24th 9pm

  • Thread starter Thread starter K.L.H.
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KittenWarrior, I don't follow what you're saying. In the programme, they debunked the placebo idea.
 
As a scientist on a career break (it doesn't pay me to be an employee scientist due to chronic disease), I have the following criticism of the research:

The research did not prove that acupunture worked, it only proved that needling at the acupressure point for pain worked In other words, the research proved the validity of the "puncture" part of acupunture only.

I would have liked to see proof of the more important part of acupuncture, the meridians and the points on the meridians. To do this, another control would be required at various other points not known as acupuncture points. Comparing the results of needling of these points to the needling of the point used in this research would be stronger evidence that acupuncture worked.

Needless to say (excuse the pun), I have total faith in acupuncture for many conditions.

What do you think?
 
Hi Darren, my thoughts may have taken me off on a tangent (sorry!). The research obviously proved acupuncture works over and above the placebo effect. I was just wondering whether the people that had the sham acupuncture still got results verses the group that didn't have any treatment? I was just pondering the power of the mind to make us feel less pain.

KW
 
i didnt see the programme, but it does annoy me that these programmes always focus on the "big" therapies... will reflexology be highlighted?[/align][/align]anyway,[/align][/align]aragorn,[/align][/align]we have had these discussions before on the boards, particularly the convincing a sceptic, asi recall.[/align][/align]and yes, is a "worrying" idea in as much, from my understanding and what you have told me in the past, western acupuncture is nothing like "real" acupuncture. [/align][/align]and whilst pain relief is a wonderful thing, getting to the cause of the symptom has got to be better. but GP's still do not have the time, so pain relief is their best option, it would seem.[/align][/align]suzanne,[/align][/align][/align]i have studied acupressure but am no expert. i would hazard a guess though, that seeing as the body has hundreds of acu points all over, it would be quite hard, i would think, to carry out what you are suggesting.
[/align]
 
Hi Rosie,



I believe next week they are covering healing (not sure what they are covering under that)and the week after herbal remedies, I believe it is only a 3 part pragramme. So, short answer, I do not think they are touching reflexology.

So we will have to see what next week brings.

Jo
 
Really interestingprogramme but for me personally I could never use acupuncture as I have a "thing" about needles and would probably run screaming from the building if approached by anyone with that number of needles!!!
It is great it works for some people though....
 
Speak to an EFT therapist.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions as this would be a bit off-topic.
 
Jan 31st program...

Pretty vacuous reporter faux-scientist sham grrrrrr! No surprises how she got that job is all I can say.

Instead of concentrating on research on spiritual healing, she went on to disprove the value of any treatment whatsoever saying a placebo was just as good. Say that to someone in A&E with their guts on the floor and their skull in several pieces. No, I don't think a placebo is just as good as the real thing in every case and I would happily set about proving it.

So our silly vacuous reporter decides that she should find research done by.... wait for it.. a psychologist.... about healers. Sure, a psychologist is perfectly capable of understanding string theory, interatomic interactions and the like, why all our physics labs are staffed by psychologists, not! This has been going on since yours truly graduated in 1989 and is still carried out by psychologists. Whatever next? Janitors? Anyway, this research done by the psychologist teaches a "fake" healer how to heal, thereby creating a healer. It also has too many variables. The results are that both original healer and the newly-taught healer get the same results. Any Reiki Master will quite happily say something like that to their Reiki 1 students.

Also, SVR goes to the USA where she finds a lab that explains the Aura. Freaked out by how we can unscientifically possibly have any electromagnetism, she changes the subject completely to the power of the placebo. The mind boggles.

So, if SVR is reading this, maybe you should have done a simple Google search. Theis is just one example of what a brief search came up with:
http://www.google.com/scholar?q=Bengston+WF,+Krinsley+D.+The+effect+of+the+%22laying+on+of+hands%22+on+transplanted+...+Journal+of+Scientific+Exploration.+2000%3B14(3):353-364&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2005-09,GGGL:en&sa=N&tab=ss&oi=scholart
 
hi suzanne,[/align][/align]yes i saw the programme and was very disappointed by the reporting... it wasnt really unbiased, was it! [/align][/align]my views are similar to yours... teach someone to "heal" (cant use the term tsk tsk!) and yeah, they become open to the "energies" and so can do as well as someone who learnt becasue they wanted to! dont we say... anyone can do this stuff, just open up to it?[/align][/align]what does amaze me, in programmes such as this, is why the reporter doesnt say, "ok, do it to me... see if i feel anything, feel better and more able." they never seem to.[/align][/align]as therapists, of whatever modality, these prorammes do us no favours and can also sway the publics perception, driving them back to pharmaceutical "quick fixes"... hey was the programme sponsored by smith klein or someone? [&:][/align][/align]referring back to the thread on science about convincing sceptics, it was "decided" there that double blind testing would be near to impossible and this programme sort of backed that up. the fake healer actor kinda proved that... lol be interesting to know if he uses his new found skills![/align][/align]
 
Not knowing of this thread, I posted on the 'healing' programme at
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643[/link]

Anyone who's read my posts knows I'm not a full sceptic by any means - believing in chi and acupuncture for example. And many other healing methods too. But alternative techniques can sometimes get pretty wacky, and I don't accept them all blindly either. So I found the research on the placebo effect interesting. It's just one step from unwitting patients getting placebo which works to witting people healing themselves (as one patient in the programme said, in his words). Just as 'scientists' shouldn't dismiss alternative healing methods, those using them - and the allopathic world - shouldn't ignore the Reality of the placebo effect, it seems.

Sometimes at New Age Fairs I've seen things as wacky as "Sit under this wire pyramid and place this metal cap on your head. It's connected by wire to that energy crystal which was charged through our hands from the Planet ZXyphon." Or along those lines - and people pay for it and do it. Well - if there's healing, is that from ZXyphon or from the person? So in what other therapies is this happening - if it can even cure arthritic knees by fake operations (refer to other thread or the TV prog)?

Rosie, glancing at your sign-off, you don't believe in double blinds but do in double entendres? There you go - it's all about belief.

V
 
I watched this programme and thought the result for Acupuncture was brilliant last week.
However, NO surprise about the conclusions last night! [sm=banghead.gif] It would have been a more scientific test if they had had two groups of animals - animals don't understand placebos, they either get better or they don't!!

Didanyone else think it was unethical that asurgeongave people anaesthetic and cut them open butdidn't actually doing anything, just to prove the placebo effect?? [sm=confused-smiley-012.gif]
 
Hi Poppet, I don't know but would strongly guess that they'd signed up that it might not be real surgery. In America of all places, the legalities would have been covered.
 
Well how stupid are they? I've had surgery and there's NO WAY I would consent to being opened up unless there was a good reason for doing it!!
 
http://www.energyresearch.bizland.com/ is someone else she should have consulted.
 
Poppet, I too was very disturbed that people were having a general anaestheticand being opened up needlessly. When I told my husband later on he was astonished. Having anaesthesia and surgery is not something to be undertaken lightly!

I was disappointed that most of the programme seemed to be dedicated to the placebo effect, and so little about healing in its different forms. The placebo effect should have been explored in a programme of its own.
 
I carry out reiki and when I first learnt it I was quite amazed at what I, and others felt.

Having watched this programme, it did diturb me a little. I have had spiritual healing done by my sister-in-law whilst she was in training, and again I was amazed at what she and I both felt etc. Although, I must abmit it has never made me feel any better or even assisted in curing anything that I may have had. It does relax me and I find it very therapeutic.

Anyway, thinking about illnesses are only in the mind, to me is quite true. I do feel that it is mind over matter. I have never let my illnesses, aches or pains get in the way of my day to day life things, and as soon as I start thinking about it the pain feels worse and I feel totally run down, but as soon as I start doing other things soon enough the pain has gone without realising.

It's all weird. I say stay positive and don't dwell over illnesses you may have. Soon enough they will go away.

Goodchild
 
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key[/link]=[/align][/align]if you folks havent already seen this thread, please go check it out. its about this series and venetian (lord bless his cotton socks!) has emailed the presenter, Dr Kathy Sykes, to come and view our discussion. [/align][/align]
 
found this website when searching for info about the programme:
[link=http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html]http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html[/link]

it might make for interesting reading
 
They don't make any bones about their viewpoint, do they! It's a bit extraordinary for a university to be so outspoken... It's not the kind of thing a uni would naturally be into... I mean, there's a lot of negative emotion gone into that site, it seems to me...

V
 
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    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ANNIE SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLEโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒSCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ (647) 891-9688โ˜Ž๏ธ โ˜Ž๏ธ (416) 291-8879โ˜Ž๏ธ (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…NEW MANAGEMENT๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ”ฅGORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAYโ€™s ROSTER INCLUDES: ๐Ÿ”ฅ Yumi๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ’‹A striking new tall gorgeous Korean model with long, flowing reddish-brown hair cascading down her back and a slender, elegant figure that exudes grace and poise. Yumiโ€™s natural confidence and allure, make her approa
  31. Golden Sunshine Spa:
    โœจClick on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! โœ… Click Here Today๐ŸŒธCindy๐ŸŒธCindy๐ŸŒธJessica๐ŸŒธSelina๐ŸŒธNina Call us โ˜Ž 905 - 265 - 2158โ˜Ž๏ธ Your ultimate service awaits! โœจ
  32. Red Rose Spa:
    ๐ŸŒธ We have 13 hot brown girls today ๐ŸŒธ PAOLA, AMMU, KIRAN, AMANDA, SUMMER, ASHA, PREETI, ANGELINA ๐ŸŒธ 2588 Birchmount ๐ŸŒธ 2 Invergordon ๐ŸŒธ 647-702-8800 ๐ŸŒธ Please visit for a great erotic massage
  33. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน3 girls ๐Ÿ˜˜Table shower ใ€body scrub ใ€ Sea salt bath๐Ÿ‘5124 Dundas St W Etobicokeโ˜Ž๏ธ416-817-3366๐Ÿ‘ Young girl Cherry (Student)๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜โ€œcharming breasts.โ€beautiful curvy hips.โ€very provocative service๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜, professional super Luna deep tissue massage, has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will bring you a little surprise๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜โค๏ธ You are welcome to make an appointment at any time or walk in the
  34. luckywellness:
    Lucky Wellness Center 4379721888 295 Eglinton Ave E,Unit 7,Mississauga Kiki and Judy are at work. They are both young and pretty. They are great at deep and relaxing massages.
  35. DareDevil:
    ARIA WELLNESS โ™ฅ๏ธADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, RICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 (PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) โ™ฅ๏ธTODAY'S Schedule!โ™ฅ๏ธ Loaded lineup with Young Beautiful Girls : New Girl Joy, Ellagant Ella, Hottie Hattie, Magical Mia and Work out๐Ÿ‹๐Ÿšด๐Ÿ’ช Babe Amy! BUY 10 HOURS (GET 11 HOURS) **TODAY'S PICK OF THE DAY IS ๐Ÿฌ๐ŸญHattie๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿญ**
  36. Lulu_Villa_Spa:
    Sami is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl Natalie filipina mixed Petite girl Jessica Pretty Girl with amazing personality and super easy to get along with. Sasa friendly Vietnamese Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl
  37. EMSpa_schedule:
    Tomorrow's sneak peek: On Friday April 25, 2025, our attendants will be Cici ๐Ÿ˜˜, Opal ๐Ÿ˜˜, Vicky ๐Ÿฅฐ, Carla โค and Ada ๐Ÿฅฐ. Call us at โ˜Ž๏ธ(905) 479-6668โ˜Ž๏ธ to book!
  38. SL East Spa:
    ๐Ÿ’†โ€โ™€๐Ÿ’–Terrific Thursday ๐Ÿ’– Ultimate destination for Asian massages๐ŸŽ‰ Two fab spots: SL Richmond Hill & SL West Oakville โœจ Your passport to paradise with 9 enchanting girls fr China, HK โ€” ๐Ÿ†•Tiffany, Joey, Julie, Aaliyah, Coco, Yui, Meghan, Michelle & New 34D Jasmineโ€”โ€” ready to pamper you๐ŸŽ๐Ÿ Ring us ๐Ÿ“ž647-695-6354 or text us ๐Ÿ“ฑ647-578-8169โœจ 160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, RichmondHill ๐Ÿ’ฐWhere Eastern charm meets Western comfort - your bliss awaits๐Ÿ™Œ
  39. Lilyspa1:
    Lily Spa :๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•Thursday Schedule ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡ณ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡ณSana 23, , Punjabi girl , very pretty 36 DDD ๐Ÿ˜ˆGFE โค๏ธElena ( Latino ) Big Nature Boobs & SuSu ( Asian )Slim , ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜Porn Service ๐Ÿ”ฅDuo ๐Ÿ”ฅ,โ˜Ž๏ธ 6475318288
  40. wilson holistic centre:
    new girl Tina works at ๐Ÿ’‹535 Evans Ave today ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ416-531-6969โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ
  41. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน Table shower body scrub Sea Salt Bath๐Ÿ‘every day 3 girls ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ5124 Dundas St W Etobicokeโ˜Ž๏ธ416-817-3366๐Ÿ‘ Nice girl Mia โค๏ธ Natural Big Boobs 36 DD ๐Ÿ˜˜Pink Mini Nipples Hot body slide, super enjoyable๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜ very provocative service๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜, professional super Luna deep tissue massage, back walking has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will b
  42. wonderspa:
    ๐ŸŒบwelcome to wonder spaโ˜Ž๏ธ416-5000-800,L6a4H8๏ผŒopen10 to10.on Thursday ,Ensuit shower available ๐Ÿ…beautiful Jessica come back,deep tissue to relax massage and nice body slide๐Ÿ…sunny very good looking,big breasted sweet sensual touch really popular ๐ŸŒนlong hair very young beautiful Lily ,friendly smile,,slim body back. Walk,hot stone,cupping ,more experience โค๏ธโ€๐Ÿ”ฅ,must try
  43. Jennyโ€™s Spa:
    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’JENNYโ€™S SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…5170 DUNDAS STREET WESTโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ( 647-893-5196)โ˜Ž๏ธCall or Text โ˜Ž๏ธ( 437-888-3759)โ˜Ž๏ธCall Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…GRAND OPENING๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโ€™S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’ฏ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ”ฅโค๏ธ๐Ÿ‘Œ ๐Ÿ”ฅTWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ’ฏREAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS๐Ÿ’ฏ ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹Limited Time Special Promotion๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹ โœ…๐Ÿ’ฆ30 Minutes Nude
  44. Red Rose Spa:
    ๐ŸŒธ We have 5 hot brown girls today ๐ŸŒธ LUCY, PAOLA, ASHA, ANGELINA, SONIA, SALMA, MEGAN ๐ŸŒธ 2588 Birchmount ๐ŸŒธ 2 Invergordon ๐ŸŒธ 647-702-8800 ๐ŸŒธ Please visit for a great erotic massage
  45. Soul Relax Spa:
    โœจ Looking for a relaxing escape? โœ… Click Here Meet๐ŸŒธKim๐ŸŒธTina๐ŸŒธAlisaCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now โ˜Ž 289 - 298 - 5662โ˜Ž๏ธ Your ultimate relaxation awaits! โœจ
  46. HollywoodSpa:
    Thursday at ๐ŸŽญ๐—›๐—ข๐—Ÿ๐—Ÿ๐—ฌ๐—ช๐—ข๐—ข๐—— ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”๐ŸŽญ, 4578 Yonge St, Unit 100, North York, ON: CINDY, JENNY & SISI. โ˜Ž416-222-5554โ˜Ž CINDY is a slim & pretty lady with long dark hair and a pleasing personality. JENNY is slim, attractive, with a tight frame and service with a smile. When you visit ๐ŸŽญHollywood Spa๐ŸŽญ, you will be treated with tender care and your visit will be a fulfilling one.
  47. ForeverWarden:
    Thursday at ๐Ÿซฆโค๏ธ๐Ÿ”ด๐ŸŸฅโ™พ๏ธ๐“•๐“ž๐“ก๐“”๐“ฅ๐“”๐“ก ๐“ข๐“Ÿ๐“โ™พ๏ธ๐ŸŸฅ๐Ÿ”ดโค๏ธ๐Ÿซฆ๐Ÿซฆ2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿด๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฌ-๐Ÿณ๐Ÿด๐Ÿด๐Ÿณ: Cindy, Sophia & Tracy. Cindy is a slim beauty, 5โ€™4โ€, natural C Cups. Her massage is nice, her services will drive you wild & her finish is a dream come true. Sophia is a sweet & pretty Chinese lady with natural B Cups and an awe-inspiring smooth rounded ass. Sophia can provide top notch services
  48. wilson holistic centre:
    new girl Tina works at ๐Ÿ’‹535 Evans Ave today ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ416-531-6969โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ
  49. HolidaySpa:
    Thursday at ๐ŸŒด๐Ÿ˜Ž๐ŸŒ…๐“—๐“ธ๐“ต๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ช๐”‚ ๐“ข๐“น๐“ช๐ŸŒ…๐Ÿ˜Ž๐ŸŒด3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough โ˜Ž๏ธ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿณ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿณ-๐Ÿญ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿต๐Ÿตโ˜Ž๏ธ: ANGELA, LUCY & CINDY. Angela is versatile and responsive. LUCY is a beautiful and slim Asian lady with a happy disposition and great services. CINDY is a slim & incredibly sexy lady with a smile that will melt your heart, & an ass that will fire up your spirit.
  50. AliceSpa:
    THURSDAY at ๐—”๐—Ÿ๐—œ๐—–๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”.4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿต๐Ÿด-๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿด๐Ÿต๐Ÿด. 3 girls here today at ALICE SPA. Open 10am to 9pm: ASHLEY is a beautiful slim Korean student, snow white skin, 5'2, 100 Lbs, natural C Cup, pink nipples, baby face & voice, can accomodate bbbj cim cof rim dfk, excellent services. KITTY (12pm-9pm) is a new Korean girl, super busty, small body, new to the business.
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