BBC2 Jan 24th 9pm

  • Thread starter Thread starter K.L.H.
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KittenWarrior, I don't follow what you're saying. In the programme, they debunked the placebo idea.
 
As a scientist on a career break (it doesn't pay me to be an employee scientist due to chronic disease), I have the following criticism of the research:

The research did not prove that acupunture worked, it only proved that needling at the acupressure point for pain worked In other words, the research proved the validity of the "puncture" part of acupunture only.

I would have liked to see proof of the more important part of acupuncture, the meridians and the points on the meridians. To do this, another control would be required at various other points not known as acupuncture points. Comparing the results of needling of these points to the needling of the point used in this research would be stronger evidence that acupuncture worked.

Needless to say (excuse the pun), I have total faith in acupuncture for many conditions.

What do you think?
 
Hi Darren, my thoughts may have taken me off on a tangent (sorry!). The research obviously proved acupuncture works over and above the placebo effect. I was just wondering whether the people that had the sham acupuncture still got results verses the group that didn't have any treatment? I was just pondering the power of the mind to make us feel less pain.

KW
 
i didnt see the programme, but it does annoy me that these programmes always focus on the "big" therapies... will reflexology be highlighted?[/align][/align]anyway,[/align][/align]aragorn,[/align][/align]we have had these discussions before on the boards, particularly the convincing a sceptic, asi recall.[/align][/align]and yes, is a "worrying" idea in as much, from my understanding and what you have told me in the past, western acupuncture is nothing like "real" acupuncture. [/align][/align]and whilst pain relief is a wonderful thing, getting to the cause of the symptom has got to be better. but GP's still do not have the time, so pain relief is their best option, it would seem.[/align][/align]suzanne,[/align][/align][/align]i have studied acupressure but am no expert. i would hazard a guess though, that seeing as the body has hundreds of acu points all over, it would be quite hard, i would think, to carry out what you are suggesting.
[/align]
 
Hi Rosie,



I believe next week they are covering healing (not sure what they are covering under that)and the week after herbal remedies, I believe it is only a 3 part pragramme. So, short answer, I do not think they are touching reflexology.

So we will have to see what next week brings.

Jo
 
Really interestingprogramme but for me personally I could never use acupuncture as I have a "thing" about needles and would probably run screaming from the building if approached by anyone with that number of needles!!!
It is great it works for some people though....
 
Speak to an EFT therapist.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions as this would be a bit off-topic.
 
Jan 31st program...

Pretty vacuous reporter faux-scientist sham grrrrrr! No surprises how she got that job is all I can say.

Instead of concentrating on research on spiritual healing, she went on to disprove the value of any treatment whatsoever saying a placebo was just as good. Say that to someone in A&E with their guts on the floor and their skull in several pieces. No, I don't think a placebo is just as good as the real thing in every case and I would happily set about proving it.

So our silly vacuous reporter decides that she should find research done by.... wait for it.. a psychologist.... about healers. Sure, a psychologist is perfectly capable of understanding string theory, interatomic interactions and the like, why all our physics labs are staffed by psychologists, not! This has been going on since yours truly graduated in 1989 and is still carried out by psychologists. Whatever next? Janitors? Anyway, this research done by the psychologist teaches a "fake" healer how to heal, thereby creating a healer. It also has too many variables. The results are that both original healer and the newly-taught healer get the same results. Any Reiki Master will quite happily say something like that to their Reiki 1 students.

Also, SVR goes to the USA where she finds a lab that explains the Aura. Freaked out by how we can unscientifically possibly have any electromagnetism, she changes the subject completely to the power of the placebo. The mind boggles.

So, if SVR is reading this, maybe you should have done a simple Google search. Theis is just one example of what a brief search came up with:
http://www.google.com/scholar?q=Bengston+WF,+Krinsley+D.+The+effect+of+the+%22laying+on+of+hands%22+on+transplanted+...+Journal+of+Scientific+Exploration.+2000%3B14(3):353-364&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2005-09,GGGL:en&sa=N&tab=ss&oi=scholart
 
hi suzanne,[/align][/align]yes i saw the programme and was very disappointed by the reporting... it wasnt really unbiased, was it! [/align][/align]my views are similar to yours... teach someone to "heal" (cant use the term tsk tsk!) and yeah, they become open to the "energies" and so can do as well as someone who learnt becasue they wanted to! dont we say... anyone can do this stuff, just open up to it?[/align][/align]what does amaze me, in programmes such as this, is why the reporter doesnt say, "ok, do it to me... see if i feel anything, feel better and more able." they never seem to.[/align][/align]as therapists, of whatever modality, these prorammes do us no favours and can also sway the publics perception, driving them back to pharmaceutical "quick fixes"... hey was the programme sponsored by smith klein or someone? [&:][/align][/align]referring back to the thread on science about convincing sceptics, it was "decided" there that double blind testing would be near to impossible and this programme sort of backed that up. the fake healer actor kinda proved that... lol be interesting to know if he uses his new found skills![/align][/align]
 
Not knowing of this thread, I posted on the 'healing' programme at
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key=&#293643[/link]

Anyone who's read my posts knows I'm not a full sceptic by any means - believing in chi and acupuncture for example. And many other healing methods too. But alternative techniques can sometimes get pretty wacky, and I don't accept them all blindly either. So I found the research on the placebo effect interesting. It's just one step from unwitting patients getting placebo which works to witting people healing themselves (as one patient in the programme said, in his words). Just as 'scientists' shouldn't dismiss alternative healing methods, those using them - and the allopathic world - shouldn't ignore the Reality of the placebo effect, it seems.

Sometimes at New Age Fairs I've seen things as wacky as "Sit under this wire pyramid and place this metal cap on your head. It's connected by wire to that energy crystal which was charged through our hands from the Planet ZXyphon." Or along those lines - and people pay for it and do it. Well - if there's healing, is that from ZXyphon or from the person? So in what other therapies is this happening - if it can even cure arthritic knees by fake operations (refer to other thread or the TV prog)?

Rosie, glancing at your sign-off, you don't believe in double blinds but do in double entendres? There you go - it's all about belief.

V
 
I watched this programme and thought the result for Acupuncture was brilliant last week.
However, NO surprise about the conclusions last night! [sm=banghead.gif] It would have been a more scientific test if they had had two groups of animals - animals don't understand placebos, they either get better or they don't!!

Didanyone else think it was unethical that asurgeongave people anaesthetic and cut them open butdidn't actually doing anything, just to prove the placebo effect?? [sm=confused-smiley-012.gif]
 
Hi Poppet, I don't know but would strongly guess that they'd signed up that it might not be real surgery. In America of all places, the legalities would have been covered.
 
Well how stupid are they? I've had surgery and there's NO WAY I would consent to being opened up unless there was a good reason for doing it!!
 
http://www.energyresearch.bizland.com/ is someone else she should have consulted.
 
Poppet, I too was very disturbed that people were having a general anaestheticand being opened up needlessly. When I told my husband later on he was astonished. Having anaesthesia and surgery is not something to be undertaken lightly!

I was disappointed that most of the programme seemed to be dedicated to the placebo effect, and so little about healing in its different forms. The placebo effect should have been explored in a programme of its own.
 
I carry out reiki and when I first learnt it I was quite amazed at what I, and others felt.

Having watched this programme, it did diturb me a little. I have had spiritual healing done by my sister-in-law whilst she was in training, and again I was amazed at what she and I both felt etc. Although, I must abmit it has never made me feel any better or even assisted in curing anything that I may have had. It does relax me and I find it very therapeutic.

Anyway, thinking about illnesses are only in the mind, to me is quite true. I do feel that it is mind over matter. I have never let my illnesses, aches or pains get in the way of my day to day life things, and as soon as I start thinking about it the pain feels worse and I feel totally run down, but as soon as I start doing other things soon enough the pain has gone without realising.

It's all weird. I say stay positive and don't dwell over illnesses you may have. Soon enough they will go away.

Goodchild
 
[link=http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=293614&mpage=1&key[/link]=[/align][/align]if you folks havent already seen this thread, please go check it out. its about this series and venetian (lord bless his cotton socks!) has emailed the presenter, Dr Kathy Sykes, to come and view our discussion. [/align][/align]
 
found this website when searching for info about the programme:
[link=http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html]http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html[/link]

it might make for interesting reading
 
They don't make any bones about their viewpoint, do they! It's a bit extraordinary for a university to be so outspoken... It's not the kind of thing a uni would naturally be into... I mean, there's a lot of negative emotion gone into that site, it seems to me...

V
 
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  31. EMSpa_schedule:
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  32. DareDevil:
    Blackpink Wellness 90 Marycroft Ave. Unit #2, Vaughan, ON L4L 5Y1 (647) 395-3188. Today's girls are Lovely Lisa, Beautiful Tiffany.
  33. DareDevil:
    158 ARIA WELLNESS โ™ฅ๏ธADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, RICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 (PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) โ™ฅ๏ธTODAY'S Schedule!โ™ฅ๏ธ Loaded lineup with Beautiful Girls : New Girl Faye, Magical Mia and Work out๐Ÿ‹๐Ÿšด๐Ÿ’ช Babe Amy! BUY 10 HOURS (GET 11 HOURS) **TODAY'S PICK OF THE DAY IS ๐Ÿฌ๐ŸญFAye๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿญ**
  34. Lilyspa1:
    Lily Spa : Saturday Schedule โค๏ธโค๏ธ SuSu ( Asian )Slim , ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜Porn Service ๐Ÿฉท๐ŸฉทYumi 24, Philippine girl , 36EE big boobs and ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘ASS, ๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹Mimi 24, Korean Slim , ๐Ÿ˜ˆbbbj , DFk ๐Ÿ”ฅDuo ๐Ÿ”ฅ,โ˜Ž๏ธ 6475318288
  35. BlueXado Therapy & Spa:
  36. wilson holistic centre:
    ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•Beautiful New girl Kiki working at 382 Wilson Ave ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ416-840-0071โค๏ธโค๏ธ
  37. Lilyspa1:
    Lily Spa : Saturday Schedule โค๏ธโค๏ธ SuSu ( Asian )Slim , ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜Porn Service ๐Ÿฉท๐ŸฉทYumi 24, Philippine girl , 36EE big boobs and ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘ASS, ๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹Mimi 24, Korean Slim , ๐Ÿ˜ˆbbbj , DFk ๐Ÿ”ฅDuo ๐Ÿ”ฅ,โ˜Ž๏ธ 6475318288
  38. Lilyspa1:
    Lily Spa : Saturday Schedule โค๏ธโค๏ธ SuSu ( Asian )Slim , ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜Porn Service ๐Ÿฉท๐ŸฉทYumi 24, Philippine girl , 36EE big boobs and ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘ASS, ๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹Mimi 24, Korean Slim , ๐Ÿ˜ˆbbbj , DFk ๐Ÿ”ฅDuo ๐Ÿ”ฅ,โ˜Ž๏ธ 6475318288
  39. Lulu_Villa_Spa:
    Mia Vietnamese sweetheart girl with amazing personality Suki From Taiwan, sweet girl Barbie Petite Korea Part time School girl Elena Vietnamese sweetheart girl Natalie filipina mixed Petite girl โ˜Ž๏ธ647- 446-0886
  40. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน Table shower body scrub Sea Salt Bath๐Ÿ‘every day 2 girls ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ5124 Dundas St W Etobicokeโ˜Ž๏ธ416-817-3366๐Ÿ‘ Nice girl Ivy โค๏ธ Natural Big Boobs 36 DD ๐Ÿ˜˜Hot body slide, super enjoyable๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜ very provocative service๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜, professional super Suki๐Ÿ˜˜sexy body ๐ŸคชBeautiful tits๐Ÿ˜˜very good deep tissue massage, back walking has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected servic
  41. wilson holistic centre:
    ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•Beautiful New girl Kiki working at 382 Wilson Ave ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ416-840-0071โค๏ธโค๏ธ Edit
  42. Jennyโ€™s Spa:
    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’JENNYโ€™S SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…5170 DUNDAS STREET WESTโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ( 647-893-5196)โ˜Ž๏ธCall or Text โ˜Ž๏ธ( 437-888-3759)โ˜Ž๏ธCall Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…GRAND OPENING๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโ€™S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’ฏ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ”ฅโค๏ธ๐Ÿ‘Œ ๐Ÿ”ฅBEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ’ฏREAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS๐Ÿ’ฏ ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹Limited Time Special Promotion๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹ โœ…๐Ÿ’ฆ30 Minutes Nude Massage
  43. Pink Flower Spa:
  44. Moneylee:
    All season wellness center : New Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Doris ,Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Koko ,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament Lala,Young beautiful face sexy body and good deep massage Maggie, Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Sherry ,๐Ÿ  address: #5-30 Rambler dr Brampton ,Ontario L6W 1E2โ˜Ž๏ธ4376655510 ๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿ‘„๐Ÿ‘„
  45. Moneylee:
    Full season Wellness center: New Young girl big boobs beautiful face deep massage Emily, Student big boobs buttocks Vicky ,Young girl big breasted beautiful buttocks charming temperament big boobs Linda , young girl pretty face nice figure Thai deep massage Cici, Enchanting sexy petite deep massage Mary. ๐Ÿ  2560 Shepard ave Mississauga unit 1 โ˜Ž๏ธ 4379857899 ๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿ‘…๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿˆต๏ธ๐Ÿ‘„๐Ÿ‘„๐Ÿฆต๐Ÿฆต
  46. SugarLoveSpa:
    Saturday at โค๏ธ๐Ÿ’™ ๐Ÿ’œโŽ๐—ฆ๐—จ๐—š๐—”๐—ฅ ๐—Ÿ๐—ข๐—ฉ๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”โŽ ๐Ÿ’–๐Ÿ’—๐Ÿ’˜: CHRISTINA, LUNA, SARA & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York. CHRISTINA is Spanish, C Cups, 5'3", tall & nice curves, very open minded. LUNA is a slim, VERY PETITE and capable Vietnamese beauty, nice natural 34C Cups. Luna can do everything. SARA is a beautiful Thai lady with C Cups, 160 Cms and 50 Kgs, with a full set
  47. ForeverWarden:
    Saturday at ๐Ÿซฆโค๏ธ๐Ÿ”ด๐ŸŸฅโ™พ๏ธ๐“•๐“ž๐“ก๐“”๐“ฅ๐“”๐“ก ๐“ข๐“Ÿ๐“โ™พ๏ธ๐ŸŸฅ๐Ÿ”ดโค๏ธ๐Ÿซฆ 2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿด๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿฌ-๐Ÿณ๐Ÿด๐Ÿด๐Ÿณ: Gigi, Sara & Tracy. Sara is young & slim with nice C Cups, trim waist, sexy bum and long hair. She is vary friendly uses her assets well. Tracy is an incredibly cute & pretty Japanese/Taiwanese mixed spinner, about 5โ€™1โ€ and 100 lbs. She is very popular for her exotic massage & services.
  48. AliceSpa:
    SATURDAY at ๐—”๐—Ÿ๐—œ๐—–๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿต๐Ÿด-๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿด๐Ÿต๐Ÿด. 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough 416-298-0898 [/color] Alice spa has 3 attractive honeys today. Open 10am to 9pm: AMY is a young, petite short & slim Taiwanese, former dance instructor, firm natural B Cups, pretty face, firm natural titis, super play good, bbbj, cim, rim, dfk, all services. ASHLEY
  49. wonderspa:
    ๐ŸŒบwelcome to wonder spaโ˜Ž๏ธ416-5000-800,L6a4H8๏ผŒopen10 to10.we have 4young beautiful girls working everyday,Ensuit shower available ๐Ÿ…,new friendly nice girl CiCi,providing oil deep tissue to relax massage and nice body slide,back work,๐Ÿ…nice Vietnamese Amy is very good looking,big breasted sweet friendly ,open maid,amazing massage ,must try๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅHave nice weekend
  50. Golden Sunshine Spa:
    โœจClick on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! โœ… Click Here Today๐ŸŒธAnna๐ŸŒธJessica๐ŸŒธNina๐ŸŒธLayra๐ŸŒธTania Call us โ˜Ž 905 - 265 - 2158โ˜Ž๏ธ Your ultimate service awaits! โœจ
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